Please read the next three chapters of Walden two and then discuss the following.
How are these more recent chapters different from the previous ones?
What is your view of social enginering? Has it changed since reading the current chapters?
Based on the current chapters, do you think some of the ideas Skinner is using in Walden Two would work in our society? Why or why not?
Please have this done before class on Tuesday if you can.
Let me know if you have any questions,
--Dr. M
For one thing these chapters seem to actually include the other characters more. You get to learn more about them and hear what their thoughts are on Walden Two. This is nice because you get to "see" everything from multiple perspectives. It also makes the book more enjoyable to read by making it seem less like a diary and more like a story. This may or may not have been an intentional change. Another thing that caught my eye is how you see a darker side to the community. I shouldn't say darker side, but as you are experiencing it through the characters you are made aware of problems or ideas that just don't seem to be right. There is the way Frazier sees it and the way the others seem to see it. In ways it is impossible to tell which one is right or if either of them are, but it is clear that things aren't perfect. A final thing is Frazier himself. Even though it is still early in the book Skinner introduces you to a different side of him. He points out his faults to you and makes him appear more real. For me it is almost like Frazier is representative of a government. He reflects some of the same flaws as well as some of the greatest things about them. The further we get into the book it seem I understand him more, but in all honestly I am liking him less.
For me personally my opinion hasn't changed much throughout the reading of this book. I would say these later chapters have been showing more examples and putting the ideas to work so you can actually see how they work. The actual principles themesleves, however, do not seem to really be changing. You do get a better feel for how important they are. In the very beginning it seemed like they were concerned with social engineering, but it wasn't greatly emphasized. Now, Frazier seems to preach upon it. He goes into long rants about the hours, the workforce, the activities and all the while making the point that what sets Walden Two apart is their focus on social engineering. I think it is pointing out what little attention we give it in our society.
As I have said before no I do not. I keep trying to convince myself that it could, but I know it isn't true. There are some really great ideas put into this book. You can tell that Skinner has thought of everything. You could almost call this one of his babies. He had a vision and an idea that with the right changes and with behviorism you could change society, change the world. Unfortunately human beings are not able to carry out these ideals. We are like zombies. We do things the way we like them because it is how we were taught or because we think it is the better idea. We don't like to feel that are freedoms are being messed with. Though minor changes, the dining schedule, the activity schedule, even the work schedule, messes with our sense of freedom and control. The work thing is also tied to our feeling of needing money. All of our lives for years and years money has been a central part of our society. It provides jobs at banks, it is a motivator, and importantly it is a symbol of power. The way people are today, it would be impossible for everyone to be willing to trade it in for a world without any of it. So do I agree with most of his ideas? Efficiency? Simplicity? Equality? I certainly do. Do I find them to be practical? No I do not.
These recent chapters are different in that the narrator has changed. There is also a lot more about Walden Two and how it works were in the beginning the narrator was setting us up for what they were looking for. Now that the characters are active in the community they are beginning to feel what it would be like to actually live there. We start hear more from the other characters and learn more about how the community runs.
Social engineering to me sounds a lot like common sense. I don’t mean to put down the theory. Some of the examples used are all to make life simple, less stressful, and convenient. When I started reading Walden Two I really didn’t know what social engineering was. Once I started reading I’ve really enjoyed it. I think social engineering can benefit anyone. In Walden Two we see it used in a full scale community but it doesn’t have to be taken so largely. Social engineering could take place in your everyday life in a smaller scale. The training of the sheep in the beginning of the book was a great example. On our farm at home we raise goats that we used to keep in a pasture surrounded by an electric fence. Not we just have wire hanging and the goats stay in the pasture. They don’t have a reason to leave it. They have everything they need. We feed them every morning at the same time. They know the schedule and meet us at the trough ready for food. If we are late they stand their and cry until we come. They have learned our schedule. Not only have they learned the schedule but every year when the kids are born they learn from their mothers. Not only are these things mentioned in the book but some of them can actually work and be used everyday. I really didn’t have a good idea of what social engineering was until reading this book but I have learned a lot about how society could be.
I have proof that the training of animals like the sheep is possible and works. Some of Skinners other ideas could be adopted and used everyday. As a whole to turn our society into a Walden Three it would take years and years to get everyone to learn how to change. When thinking about how Walden has their eating schedule set up the university has a form of that. The dinning center or dashes here at UNI is always open except for holidays and holiday weekends. This helps students to have flexibility in their eating schedules. If someone can’t eat at a set time they can go whenever because they are open. Imagine if everyone on campus had their own kitchens. The amount of resources and energy used for everyone to make their own food would be huge. The dinning centers know how many people there are and they make enough food for us. Weekends are a little different, some students go home and most students like to sleep in so the dinning center has adapted to that. They serve a later brunch instead of the normal early breakfast. They also prepare less because of the lower number of students on campus. Walden does the same thing. Food is prepared throughout the day to avoid crowds and save resources. So Walden as a whole might not be feasible but certain aspects are possible.
In these chapters I started to see more of a perspective of other characters. I got to see more into the jobs and how the credit system worked. One thing I started to notice in these chapters was Frazier’s unwillingness to compromise. I understand that they had their way to go about things, but he started getting on my nerves about how he acted like everything he said was absolute truth, and he did less explaining. The line about bringing a frantic beast under control was something I did not agree with. Frazier said that you, “Let her run till she drops from exhaustion.” Personally this can be detrimental and can possibly kill an animal. I think that there can be more explanation taking place. Another part that I disagreed with was the part that talked about how the paintings were not amazing. I believe that something that you find intriguing should bring a sense of astonishment to you. I believe if someone has a talent that interests you, it would be fair to complement. Frazier is making it sound like under the right circumstances all of the most “amazing” things can happen by anyone. But, I still find that it would be appropriate to find the value in the arts that grabs your interest. I also believe that his idea of how long a concert should be differs greatly from person to person. I like the different moods set within the song choices at a concert. I believe they are special events, and I would like to be there for at least an hour and a half to two hours.
I still feel social engineering is just a way to stream line living. It is a way to upgrade societal techniques and overall improve communications in society. It helps to make life easier on people and helps to make some tasks have more convenience. I believe Skinner is using these chapters to go in depth and explain more of the intricate social details. Even with things such as the tea cups, I believe that even household families could benefit from social engineering in improving home life. Working in houses these past few years I have noticed some different ways society has improved homes. People have invented heated floors to warm homes, which in the long run is more cost efficient and more effective. Another thing I noticed was built in vacuuming cleaners in the floors. These help making sweeping more efficient. I feel these are a part of social engineering that has actually made its way into the real world. My belief has not changed. I knew what it was already. The only difference is I never thought about it as much in detail as skinner did. It seems pretty self explanatory to me.
I believe that many of Skinner’s ideas would work in today’s society, but many other ones I think would not. There is a big problem with cost effectiveness, and the change would be too hard on some people. A lot of his ideas are some ideas that all could agree with, but not all could do. Other ideas are not all agreed upon. It usually takes a huge catastrophe or uprising of some kind to elicit large social change. There are some though, that I think could be implemented and fit in quite well.
In these current chapters we get to see a real vision of what Skinner's utopia should look like. While reading I had to keep reminding myself that this was coming from Skinner's point of view. He tells a very good story.
We are introduced to several other members of the Walden Two society. All of these members seem to be very specialized in their lines of work. It has been socially engineered to work this way. With less to worry about, musicians can focus on music, farmers can focus on their farms, and architects can focus on making structural improvements. It's all a very good idea. This is already happening in our own environment. It isn't wholly perfect like Walden Two, but is there none the less.
I like Skinner's idea of education. He forms the idea that we should be enlightened about all things. He uses music as an example, if more people knew the finer details about music then a better understanding and liking would be sure to follow.
I do not like Skinner's idea of Socialism though. The socialist concept of thinking is imperfect. While "everyones equal" sounds nice, it is almost impossible. The government would have to account for every aspect of the economy to plan the inputs and outputs for society. Worker productivity would have to be somehow kept constant. However, when your wages are already predetermined, what incentive is there to work hard? Also, human free will can never fully be suppressed.
The idea of a family is also forsaken. Children are to be raised in groups and parents should not praise their own children with special gifts. This idea is rather morbid to me.
While Skinner makes some valid points in these chapters, he also provides ideas that I completely disagree with.
Ch 9-11
In the more recent chapters the reader gets to know the characters much better. Before this, Barbra, Mary, Rodge, and Steve all seemed to be interchangeable. None of them really stuck out, and they were all treated as if they were just along for the ride. Now they seem to be participating more.
As much as it is tried to be rid of in Walden Two, gender differences are still apparent. It has been said before that the men don’t seem to dress as well in Walden Two as the women do. In chapter 9 when the visitors are washing the windows you can see another gender discrepancy. The young men do the hardest labor, while the women do the easiest. Also they refer to washing the windows as “industrialized housewifery.”
Up until now Frazier has tried to show that the community is based on behavioral principles. As Frazier described many aspects of the community he portrayed them in a light that they were more for social engineering, rather than to make the people of the community happier. As the story moves forward though, it appears that there are benefits of the social engineering that he has not presented before. For example, Frazier explains that the reason for the labor credits is because it is more efficient. Later though Burris finds a bulletin board that strikes the conversation of the effect of genes versus the amount of time spent practicing on talent. Frazier argues that since people do not have to spend so much time working, they can spend more time honing their talent, and improving their skills. Although the main reason for the labor credits may be that it is more efficient, it cannot be denied that they also help to produce a happier society.
Although I believe that everyone is equal, in our society they are not treated as equals. By this I don’t mean racial, or gender equality, I mean equality of job statuses. Although jobs are not equal in Walden Two, their status levels are the inversion of ours. For this to ever work in our society, it would have to be a gradual process. I doubt that the people at the top would ever accept that someone at the bottom is below them. Also theirs is a relatively small community and I’m not sure that this system would work in a big city.
It seems social engineering attempts to place limits on human behaviors and attitudes and constraint on free will. I like this idea. It is much easier to control if the people who you are trying to place limits on are not aware of this aspect. I think if people were aware of your intentions, that they would not cooperate and rebel against your ideas. I am getting a better understanding of social engineering as I read farther. Frazier shows some of his flaws, rather than all of the good things about him. I would have to disagree with Tiffany. She stated that Frazier is like the government. Yes the government has flaws, but rarely do they ever state an apology, or state the flaws in general. They make it seem that they are trying to "do their best" at helping society. They never flat out say "it was a mistake on our part and we will fix it," they would say something like "complications rose and we are working on a solution."
Although I am interested in the Utopian society, I do not think it would work well in our society today. within our society, we get rewarded on many of the 'wrong' things. For example, SES status, wealth, and greed. We are not in the right mindset of giving up necessary things. The word 'want' is more common in our daily vocabulary than is 'need.' We are motivated by what others have and what we wish to have. We believe these things will make us happy, but it is never enough.
However I think the credit system would be successful somewhere in our society. Jobs such as working at a fast food restaurant (where the job is fairly simple) gets paid minimum wage working 8 hours, as opposed to a doctor working 11 hour days making $80 an hour. Although the doctor works longer, the pay is better. This is somewhat similar to the credit system in Walden Two. If you break down the pay of the doctor getting the same about of money in a day at the fast food worker, the doctor would only have to work 42 minutes. The ratio isn't very fair, but you get the idea.
I would have to disagree with Tiffany. She stated that Frazier is like the government. Yes the government has flaws, but rarely do they ever state an apology, or state the flaws in general. They make it seem that they are trying to "do their best" at helping society. They never flat out say "it was a mistake on our part and we will fix it," they would say something like "complications rose and we are working on a solution."
Chapters 12-14
An interesting bit of behavioral engineering in these chapters was their visit to the nursery. There they saw babies in air cribs. This was an interesting “peek behind the curtain” because Skinner himself had an air crib for his daughters. It is made to keep the baby warm and dry. In cases where it is too difficult to regulate the heat in a house or whole room, this crib can be regulated and kept draft-free. The Walden nursery also used mattress covers that could easily be cleaned when soiled, allowing the baby to be diaper-free saving all that laundry.
The answer to the question of would this idea work in our society is quite obvious, as we have seen in the reaction to Skinner’s air crib. The strong negative reaction to his invention indicates society is not ready for Skinner’s concepts.
While they were visiting the toddlers Frazier discusses the children living in Walden Two. He points out that they are seldom envious or jealous. He believes these are not healthy emotions. In the outside, competitive world they lead to problems in society. Frazier explains that inside Walden Two they shape the children’s behavior to try to eliminate these emotions by training the children using techniques of self-control. For example, they give children a lollipop dipped in powered sugar and tell them not to lick it for a period of time. The powered sugar will show if it has been licked. If they are able to not lick the lollipop they are rewarded. This is designed to teach the children self control through positive reinforcement. However, Skinner does not address what happens if the child just eats the lollipop right away; since Walden Two does not punish what would stop the child? Because, as Frazier says that in Walden Two they do not punish, they never administer an unpleasantness to eliminate or repress an undesirable behavior. How would the residents react to such undesired behavior?
Another technique they use to shape the children’s behavior and develop patience is making hungry children stand by their bowl of soup, waiting for a period of time before they may eat. They vary the conditions. Sometimes some children are allowed to eat while others wait, sometimes they must be completely silent for five minutes, other times they then extend the waiting time. Frazier says these training techniques teach the children to be tolerant of annoying experiences, have patience, and not to be jealous of those who get to eat the soup before they do.